A Computer hardware and components forum. ComputerBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ComputerBanter.com forum » Motherboards » Asus Motherboards
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old October 21st 15, 08:10 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

On 10/20/2015 4:29 PM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote:

That advice is always correct, except when it isn't.
Designers sometimes do stupid things to reduce costs.
Sometimes advisers extrapolate their experience to situations
where it doesn't apply and express it with arrogance.

Check out the schematic for a Compaq Aero 4-25.
The only thing between the battery and the charge jack is a FET switch.
They use the current limit in the power brick to limit the charge
current. If you use a charger with a higher current limit, you overheat
the battery.
If you use an unlimited current source, the FET catches fire.
Somewhere around here I have a motherbord with a hole burned in it.

Expressing advice concisely and completely with maximum arrogance
to a newbie without a voltmeter or the
means or understanding to verify the advice is irresponsible...
even if it is correct ALMOST all of the time.
Sometimes, the advice doesn't apply.


You missed a golden opportunity.

I already provided a link from badcaps.net, with a
*schematic* for the laptop. Apply for a login account,
so you can download the schematic. I already had an account
on badcaps, so could get this immediately.

"ASUS N61JQ won't start"
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42461

You can apply your keen analytical skills to that schematic
and tell us how the unit works.

PDF page 89 has the battery controller (MB39A132).
PDF page 60 has the DC jack with inductive surge (undershoot) protection.

And to help you on your way, this doc gives you an
overview on the MB39A132 feature set.

"DC/DC Converter IC for Charging Li-ion Batteries MB39A132 ..."
http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/EDG...nd/26-3e/7.pdf

What do you notice on Figure 9 Page 5 ? It uses an SMPS
with high side/low side MOSFETs for controlling the charging
of the battery.

What can you feed an SMPS with ? All sorts of stuff.
Very flexible. What may not be flexible, is some of the
voltage thresholds set to work with a 19V adapter.
(The chip detects when the AC adapter is plugged in.)

I got a datasheet for the MB39A132 here. But that
isn't necessary needed right away.

http://master-chip.ru/store/files/b7...8/mb39a132.pdf


*******

Your quoted material, is from a 20 year old laptop,
a laptop with NiMH battery technology. What are
the odds that a current generation laptop is
as crude as that ? You yourself contributed to
this faq.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pc-hardware...s/compaq-aero/

Paul

Well, these newsgroups last forever. Just because you know what
you're doing, doesn't mean that everyone else does.

I already stated that it's likely that it's OK.

I'm merely responding to the knowitalls who state with
authority that they have all the answers, when they really
don't actually know EVERYTHING.
It's very easy to take some experience and extrapolate it to
the point where it gets someone else in trouble.
Too much typing and not nearly enough thinking.

Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.
  #82  
Old October 21st 15, 08:31 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

mike wrote:


Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.


The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic
components to come up with cheaper and cheaper
solutions.

This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver
reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The
charging solution has absolutely no merit at all
(no charge termination).

On the other hand, I like my car battery charger,
which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers
to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging
claims an amount of current will flow, which is never
achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or
charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms
of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper -
removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave
you with only an AC transformer.

If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they
could have cut a few more corners.

It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are
so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view),
that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't
for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision
charging chips.

Paul
  #83  
Old October 21st 15, 01:30 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:10:38 -0700, mike Gave us:

I'm merely responding to the knowitalls who state with
authority that they have all the answers, when they really
don't actually know EVERYTHING.


I NEVER made any such claim. That retarded horse**** ONLY came out of
you, dip****.

I spent a decade designing switch mode power supplies, and I know what
I know and never claimed to know more.

But I certainly know more than a putz who cannot even get Linux, or
basic Ohm's Law.
  #84  
Old October 21st 15, 01:30 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:10:38 -0700, mike Gave us:

It's very easy to take some experience and extrapolate it to
the point where it gets someone else in trouble.


Yes, you have been trolling this Linux newsgroup for years with inane
bull**** extrapolated from your bent brain.
  #85  
Old October 21st 15, 01:40 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:31:17 -0400, Paul Gave us:

mike wrote:


Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.


The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic
components to come up with cheaper and cheaper
solutions.

This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver
reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The
charging solution has absolutely no merit at all
(no charge termination).


The battery technology in such devices is far less advanced than that
used in a portable computing device, not to mention the "chargers" they
incorporated.

On the other hand, I like my car battery charger,
which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers
to make a "high impedance" charging circuit.


Lead acid batteries merely need a voltage greater than the battery
voltage to take on a charge. They do not car about ripple. Device
chargers are not only meant to charge the device battery, but the power
they feed must be clean enough to power the device as well.

The packaging
claims an amount of current will flow, which is never
achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or
charge it quickly) with the charger.


Car batteries can literally explode if overcharged.

But in terms
of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper -


They only need to rectify the AC so that it make DC pulses which are
higher in voltage than the battery. They are not meant to power a
device, nor do they have to provide what is known as 'a clean source'.

removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave
you with only an AC transformer.


No ****. And they usually use a simple diode rectifier or diode
bridge, not expensive Selenium.

If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they
could have cut a few more corners.


Those batteries age and that is why they were phased out for more
advanced power storage devices.

It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are
so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view),


They are dangerous from a real POV as well, not simply some lame
liability like lawn darts, or "coffee is hot".

that a lot more care is put into them.


More is done because the 'juice' they provide must be CLEAN for the
device to not puke all over itself.

If it wasn't
for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision
charging chips.


  #86  
Old October 21st 15, 10:22 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage


"Paul" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:


Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.


The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic
components to come up with cheaper and cheaper
solutions.

This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver
reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The
charging solution has absolutely no merit at all
(no charge termination).

On the other hand, I like my car battery charger,
which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers
to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging
claims an amount of current will flow, which is never
achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or
charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms
of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper -
removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave
you with only an AC transformer.

If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they
could have cut a few more corners.

It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are
so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view),
that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't
for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision
charging chips.

Paul


Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification.
I think everyone is "right" but just saying
the same thing in their own unique ways.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.
Let me rephrase...

For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays),
if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with
sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since
more and more safety measures (like sensors) are
designed in to protect valuable equipment.
Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to
value of equipment (both increase/decrease together).

Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on
power for newbies?


  #87  
Old October 21st 15, 11:32 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage

Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:

Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.

The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic
components to come up with cheaper and cheaper
solutions.

This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver
reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The
charging solution has absolutely no merit at all
(no charge termination).

On the other hand, I like my car battery charger,
which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers
to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging
claims an amount of current will flow, which is never
achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or
charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms
of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper -
removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave
you with only an AC transformer.

If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they
could have cut a few more corners.

It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are
so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view),
that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't
for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision
charging chips.

Paul


Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification.
I think everyone is "right" but just saying
the same thing in their own unique ways.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.
Let me rephrase...

For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays),
if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with
sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since
more and more safety measures (like sensors) are
designed in to protect valuable equipment.
Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to
value of equipment (both increase/decrease together).

Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on
power for newbies?



Most of what I've learned, was by analysing stuff (schematics),
or learning by making mistakes.

To illustrate, there are three kinds of adapters for
consumer electronics. These are general categories.

1) AC adapter (it's just a transformer)
2) Unregulated DC adapter (transformer, rectifiers, filter cap)
DC voltage varies with loading.
3) Regulated DC adapter (SMPS, similar to ATX power supply design,
isolated for shock protection, overcurrent detection with
various behaviors on overcurrent). Complete switch-off being
a common overcurrent behavior). Connect a 2 amp light bulb
to a 2 amp adapter, it will shut off. Why ? The bulb draws
4 amps when it is cold, trips the OC immediately, and the
adapter shuts off.

OK, I bought a label maker one day. It had provision for battery
operation. You were supposed to pour $$$ worth of dry cells into
the thing. An optional adapter was available, at $50 !!!
Well, naturally, being a cheap-skate, I wanted neither dry cells
nor a $50 adapter.

On the housing of the unit, next to the barrel connector for power,
it said "7VDC", and had the symbol for center-positive power. So
I bought a *regulated* 7VDC adapter and plugged it in. I verified
the adapter made exactly 7V, and it did do that. With a fairly high
current rating (so not likely to poop out on OC).

So I try to print a label, and... nothing.

So I eventually break down and buy the optional adapter for $50.
Turns out it is unregulated. At no load, the adapter makes *10V*
and at the instant the motor cranks the label through the print
area, the voltage drops down to 7V due to the increased current
draw.

So it really needed the elevated (unspecified) 10V voltage to make
the keyboard and display and control chip work.

That lesson taught me, that the specification printed on
the housing ("7VDC") could be regulated or unregulated, and
there is no way to know which is appropriate. They kinda got you
by the nuts.

And that's learning by making mistakes.

As for your laptop, I don't see a reason in what I've seen
in the schematic so far, for there to be a dependency on adapter
power rating. Your laptop is the 90W design. A 19V adapter
of 90W or 135W should work. The charging circuit has control
of what it is doing, and is not dependent on external impedance
characteristics. The charger chip has slow start (inrush limit),
so if the adapter is already plugged into the wall and you
shove the barrel into the laptop jack, the adapter doesn't
quit on OC. There is a clamp diode near the jack, so if the
barrel is removed while the adapter is powered, the inductive
kick-back is quenched. The design has a current sampling shunt,
which implies the chip can sense the current. And knows if
too much current is being drawn. And it has a fair number
of MOSFETs to control various things. As long as MOSFETs are
saturated (fully ON or fully OFF), they don't get all that
warm. And that's important. It's easy to burn out a MOSFET
with no heatsink, by turning it half-ON by design. This is
why SMPS circuits take turns with MOSFETs fully ON or fully OFF,
to achieve a desired result. The devices then get warm but
not hot.

There are adapters that have more than two wires, and that
immediately makes me suspicious. It implies some form of
control, or "adapter power rating checking" being done
by the laptop. That tends to happen with stuff above
65W. You're likely to find 65W designs to be pretty simple
and carefree. Anything above that, you should keep your
eyes open, and do a bit of Googling to learn of the
issues.

Paul
  #88  
Old October 22nd 15, 02:43 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,alt.os.linux.ubuntu,comp.sys.laptops
Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 377
Default cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
...
mike wrote:

Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up
designs. You find out after it's too late.
The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic
components to come up with cheaper and cheaper
solutions.

This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver
reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The
charging solution has absolutely no merit at all
(no charge termination).

On the other hand, I like my car battery charger,
which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers
to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging
claims an amount of current will flow, which is never
achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or
charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms
of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper -
removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave
you with only an AC transformer.

If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they
could have cut a few more corners.

It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are
so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view),
that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't
for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision
charging chips.

Paul


Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification.
I think everyone is "right" but just saying
the same thing in their own unique ways.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.
Let me rephrase...

For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays),
if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with
sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since
more and more safety measures (like sensors) are
designed in to protect valuable equipment.
Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to
value of equipment (both increase/decrease together).

Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on
power for newbies?


Most of what I've learned, was by analysing stuff (schematics),
or learning by making mistakes.

To illustrate, there are three kinds of adapters for
consumer electronics. These are general categories.

1) AC adapter (it's just a transformer)
2) Unregulated DC adapter (transformer, rectifiers, filter cap)
DC voltage varies with loading.
3) Regulated DC adapter (SMPS, similar to ATX power supply design,
isolated for shock protection, overcurrent detection with
various behaviors on overcurrent). Complete switch-off being
a common overcurrent behavior). Connect a 2 amp light bulb
to a 2 amp adapter, it will shut off. Why ? The bulb draws
4 amps when it is cold, trips the OC immediately, and the
adapter shuts off.

OK, I bought a label maker one day. It had provision for battery
operation. You were supposed to pour $$$ worth of dry cells into
the thing. An optional adapter was available, at $50 !!!
Well, naturally, being a cheap-skate, I wanted neither dry cells
nor a $50 adapter.

On the housing of the unit, next to the barrel connector for power,
it said "7VDC", and had the symbol for center-positive power. So
I bought a *regulated* 7VDC adapter and plugged it in. I verified
the adapter made exactly 7V, and it did do that. With a fairly high
current rating (so not likely to poop out on OC).

So I try to print a label, and... nothing.

So I eventually break down and buy the optional adapter for $50.
Turns out it is unregulated. At no load, the adapter makes *10V*
and at the instant the motor cranks the label through the print
area, the voltage drops down to 7V due to the increased current
draw.

So it really needed the elevated (unspecified) 10V voltage to make
the keyboard and display and control chip work.

That lesson taught me, that the specification printed on
the housing ("7VDC") could be regulated or unregulated, and
there is no way to know which is appropriate. They kinda got you
by the nuts.


:-)

Thanks, sounds similar to my current trial experience with ac adapters.
I had to return the first laptop charger because, when connected,
the slightest tap of the plug/barrel/jack can cause the battery to
take over as if the ac adapter were "not" connected.

Maybe this all points back to that less than stellar power supply standard?

With another laptop charger, can't get the battery to
take over no matter how hard I wiggle that barrel plug.



And that's learning by making mistakes.

As for your laptop, I don't see a reason in what I've seen
in the schematic so far, for there to be a dependency on adapter
power rating. Your laptop is the 90W design. A 19V adapter
of 90W or 135W should work. The charging circuit has control
of what it is doing, and is not dependent on external impedance
characteristics. The charger chip has slow start (inrush limit),
so if the adapter is already plugged into the wall and you
shove the barrel into the laptop jack, the adapter doesn't
quit on OC. There is a clamp diode near the jack, so if the
barrel is removed while the adapter is powered, the inductive
kick-back is quenched. The design has a current sampling shunt,
which implies the chip can sense the current. And knows if
too much current is being drawn. And it has a fair number
of MOSFETs to control various things. As long as MOSFETs are
saturated (fully ON or fully OFF), they don't get all that
warm. And that's important. It's easy to burn out a MOSFET
with no heatsink, by turning it half-ON by design. This is
why SMPS circuits take turns with MOSFETs fully ON or fully OFF,
to achieve a desired result. The devices then get warm but
not hot.

There are adapters that have more than two wires, and that
immediately makes me suspicious. It implies some form of
control, or "adapter power rating checking" being done
by the laptop. That tends to happen with stuff above
65W. You're likely to find 65W designs to be pretty simple
and carefree. Anything above that, you should keep your
eyes open, and do a bit of Googling to learn of the
issues.

Paul


Thanks (Guru Paul), there's no better way to
know the truth than to go straight to the source/schematic. :-)

It's good to know that my laptop can definitely take
a more powerful (90W) power supply, but, so far,
the makers of "quality" laptop chargers do not offer
anything more powerful than 90W. Although,
I think I saw some (120W?) at the store by other makers.
I might go back to look more closely at those more powerful laptop chargers.

So far, I've only come across 2-wire laptop chargers but,
now that I know, I'll watch out for non-2-wire laptop chargers.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3BTech.net Viotek "Black Titanium" Power Supply Ripoff Kent_Diego[_2_] Homebuilt PC's 21 May 21st 08 02:18 AM
Power dissipation of hannspree HG19WNY "New York" LCD monitor? blackhead Homebuilt PC's 7 February 21st 08 11:40 PM
Power requirements of 2 1/2" laptop hard disks?? BD Storage (alt) 14 September 7th 07 06:58 PM
Toshiba Laptop suddenly "loses" wall power [email protected] General 5 March 13th 07 09:08 AM
Power surge killed iiyama 18" TFT, any comments on Dell 20" offer John Perry UK Computer Vendors 21 January 12th 06 05:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 ComputerBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.