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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 9th 18, 02:37 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
Lynn McGuire[_3_]
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Posts: 122
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html

"It’s been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a
mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times
and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels
like computing through a thick layer of molasses."

Lynn
  #2  
Old August 9th 18, 03:22 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,286
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

Lynn McGuire wrote:

"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html

"ItĘs been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a
mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times
and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels
like computing through a thick layer of molasses."


Ever look at the cost of a 2TB or 4TB SSD? Ouch!!!

Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 2TB SATA3 SSD
$509.77 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...71&ignorebbr=1

Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 4TB SATA3 SSD
$1051.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...69&ignorebbr=1

Then go look at HDD prices.

WDC Black 2TB SATA3 HDD
$119.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...24&ignorebbr=1

WDC Black 4TB SATA3 HDD
$182.99
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...W6&ignorebbr=1

SSDs cheap? No phucking way even if you do recreational drugs. I only
use SSDs for the OS/app partition - and I know that I am paying a HIGH
premium for the faster SSDs. HDDs get used for large storage because
SSDs are still way too EXPENSIVE! However, not all users can afford the
premium priced SSDs for their OS/app partition's drive.

There are hybrid SSHDs (SSD+HDD) that are a lot cheaper than SSD-only
drives. I doubt most users would notice the difference in overall
performance between an SSD and an SSHD. Remember that the vast majority
of users only occasionally encounter burst mode and won't notice a
difference when using normal applications. If someone were doing video
editing, well, they'd need more than one SSD, anyway, and that puts
those boxes out of the price range of the average consumer.

https://promotions.newegg.com/Seagat...085/index.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DboEUsOwN28
  #3  
Old August 9th 18, 05:03 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Bill[_38_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

VanguardLH wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:

"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html

"ItĘs been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a
mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times
and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels
like computing through a thick layer of molasses."


Ever look at the cost of a 2TB or 4TB SSD? Ouch!!!

Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 2TB SATA3 SSD
$509.77 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...71&ignorebbr=1

Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 4TB SATA3 SSD
$1051.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...69&ignorebbr=1

Then go look at HDD prices.

WDC Black 2TB SATA3 HDD
$119.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...24&ignorebbr=1

WDC Black 4TB SATA3 HDD
$182.99
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...W6&ignorebbr=1

SSDs cheap? No phucking way even if you do recreational drugs. I only
use SSDs for the OS/app partition - and I know that I am paying a HIGH
premium for the faster SSDs. HDDs get used for large storage because
SSDs are still way too EXPENSIVE! However, not all users can afford the
premium priced SSDs for their OS/app partition's drive.



True, not all users can afford their own computers. But I think
those that do have and use them can cannot afford to not get an
SSD large enough for the core of their system. A couple of years
ago, none of the computers sold by Best Buy came with an SSD, but
I strongly suspect that situation is different today.
  #4  
Old August 9th 18, 05:24 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

On 8/8/2018 9:03 PM, Bill wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:

"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html


"ItĘs been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a
mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times
and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels
like computing through a thick layer of molasses."


Ever look at the cost of a 2TB or 4TB SSD? Ouch!!!

Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 2TB SATA3 SSD
$509.77 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...71&ignorebbr=1


Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" 4TB SATA3 SSD
$1051.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...69&ignorebbr=1


Then go look at HDD prices.

WDC Black 2TB SATA3 HDD
$119.00 (current sale price)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...24&ignorebbr=1


WDC Black 4TB SATA3 HDD
$182.99
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...W6&ignorebbr=1


SSDs cheap? No phucking way even if you do recreational drugs. I only
use SSDs for the OS/app partition - and I know that I am paying a HIGH
premium for the faster SSDs. HDDs get used for large storage because
SSDs are still way too EXPENSIVE! However, not all users can afford the
premium priced SSDs for their OS/app partition's drive.



True, not all users can afford their own computers. But I think those
that do have and use them can cannot afford to not get an SSD large
enough for the core of their system. A couple of years ago, none of the
computers sold by Best Buy came with an SSD, but I strongly suspect that
situation is different today.


How's the reliability?
I'm still reading that they fail catastrophically without warning.
I can live with a crashed hard drive that still has most of its contents
intact.
Not sure I like the idea of living on the edge.
Yes, I do backups.

I picked up a NEW Samsung SSD850 EVO 500GB drive last month at an estate
sale for $10. Not had the motivation to put it into anything.
Already forgot that I have it.
I'd still have to run the spinner for bulk storage.

I rarely reboot my system and don't play games.

I put a smaller one in a laptop. Boots fast, but otherwise, can't tell that
it makes much difference.
The internet limits the speed of most of what I want to do.

If it ain't broke...
  #5  
Old August 9th 18, 05:52 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Bill[_38_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

mike wrote:

How's the reliability?
I'm still reading that they fail catastrophically without warning.


I've heard that the reliability of SSDs far exceeds that of the
mechanical hard drives (for, in fact, an obvious reason--no
moving parts). The "trim" software for my Intel SSD even provides
an indication of the drive's reliability (I'm not sure how well
that works). I do regular backups too.
  #6  
Old August 9th 18, 06:45 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

On 8/8/2018 9:52 PM, Bill wrote:
mike wrote:

How's the reliability?
I'm still reading that they fail catastrophically without warning.


I've heard that the reliability of SSDs far exceeds that of the
mechanical hard drives (for, in fact, an obvious reason--no moving
parts). The "trim" software for my Intel SSD even provides an indication
of the drive's reliability (I'm not sure how well that works). I do
regular backups too.


This thread got me all excited and I dug out a SSD. Trying to update it
from win10 1511 to 1803. Trying to run setup off the 1803 thumb drive
does nothing. Maybe that's too far a spread in versions.

It does bring up a SSD question about how full you can load it.

It appears that you don't want it too full or it spends too much
time erasing blocks. What is not clear is whether it is drive
or partition dependent.

I like to keep my C: small and put the bulk stuff on D:.
I've read that it is ok if the TOTAL amount of data is
much smaller than the TOTAL drive. I've also read what appears
to conflict with that statement.

Stated another way...Is the assignment of hardware blocks fixed at the time
the partition is formatted?

Can I leave my 60GB C: partition? Or should I make it bigger,
less full?
  #7  
Old August 9th 18, 06:54 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,286
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

mike wrote:

How's the reliability [of SSDs]? I'm still reading that they fail
catastrophically without warning.


Most have an estimated lifespan of 10 years, maybe more. For some
users, that's a lot longer then they plan on ever owning a particular
computer. When I build mine, I plan on a 6-year lifespan. My last
build was from a salvaged PC built in 2009 but I replaced a lot of
components (to repair the PC and to upgrade it) back in 2013. So it's
getting close to my 6-year expected lifespan; however, I'm disappointed
with the lack of progress in CPU, the Spectre problems, and will wait
another couple years before planning a new build. I added the SSD in
2016, so I should have several more years left before it gots kaboom.

Electronics seem to fail quick (in a month) or at about their pregnancy
period (9 months). Then they typically last until one month after the
warranty expires or, if you're lucky, until the device's MTBF. That
applies to HDDs or SSDs.

Yes, they do fail catastrophically. They suffer oxide stress at their
junctions during writes. All SSDs have a rated maximum number of writes
(but getting that info from the manufacturer is very difficult). I can
buy HDDs and SSDs with 5-year warranties. Don't plan on either of those
lasting much longer than the warranty. Anything longer is gravy.

They use wear leveling to increase their lifespan. They have to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_leveling

To compensate for when memory blocks go bad (and they will), there are
reserve blocks. Iffy blocks get their data moved (mapped) to a reserve
block and the iffy block gets marked as bad (so it never gets reused)
and any access to it get redirected to the reserve block. As mapping
increases, the drive slows down due to all the redirections. The
reserve space is limited. Once it is all consumed, the SSD drive
catastrophically fails.

SSDs will get increasingly slower if the same memory block gets reused.
It must be erased (written) before it can be written with data. To
overcome this speed crippling, TRIM is used to perform optimization in
the background (when the PC is idle). Although the OS usually issues
the TRIM command, most SSDs nowadays have their own firmware do the
garbage collection during idle periods.

An HDD could die tomorrow and the SSD lasts for 10 years. An SSD could
die in the new few minutes while an HDD runs for 20 years. Depends on
how you use it, how it gets abused (by you, by surges, outages, temp
changes, etc), and the quality of the build. Faster with non-moving
parts does not guarantee greater longevity. Having non-moving parts
only imparts some probability of greater longevity; however, SSDs are
self-destructive, so they WILL DIE. Do *not* use SSDs for backups or
long-term archival storage unless the device is only used when saving
the data and not used to access it (except for restoration).

HDDs will fail, too. However, often they indicate pending problems via
S.M.A.R.T. data although that is not a guarantee. A drive whose SMART
says it is healthy could suddenly die, or get so flaky that they become
unreliable. One of the SMART attributes is a pending reallocation
count. HDDs also have reserve space to which bad sectors get remapped.
When a sector is flagged, the pending count goes up. When it eventually
gets remapped, the count goes down. The count should be zero. If the
count is not zero and doesn't eventually decrement to zero (i.e., the
flagged sector is not getting remapped) then the reserve space has been
consumed. The drive does not stopped functioning. There is no
catastrophic failure due to lack of reserve space. The pending count
keeps going up and the sectors become unreliable that cannot get
remapped. There are tools to watch the pending count (SMART monitors)
to warn you when this is starting, so you get time to recover or backup
as much as possible. When the SSD catastrophically fails, you'll have
to rely on your last backup whenever that was (and why backups should be
scheduled because humans make unreliable schedulers).

A lot of folks think that no moving parts mandates the SSDs will last
longer than HDDs. Wrong. An SSD that experiences lots of writes will
die sooner which could be much shorter than for an HDD with its moving
parts. HDDs will experience gyroscopic effects, have a maximum G force
they can withstand, and have a smaller operating temperature range.
HDDs are also not sealed, so they are affected by high humidity (water
molecules are smaller than the sinter filter in the body of the HDD).
SSDs can operate in harsher environments. SSDs do wear out.

SSD reliability in the real world: Google's experience
https://www.zdnet.com/article/ssd-re...es-experience/

I picked up a NEW Samsung SSD850 EVO 500GB drive last month at an estate
sale for $10. Not had the motivation to put it into anything.
Already forgot that I have it.
I'd still have to run the spinner for bulk storage.

I rarely reboot my system and don't play games.


I leave mine on 24x7 because I use my home PC at varying times: day,
night, early morning, any time. Plus I schedule jobs to run during the
early morn, so the computer must be ready (and putting it into Sleep or
Hibernate will only last about an hour before a scheduled task wakes up
the PC). One of the reasons to use a computer is to have it do the
work. I do have power options configured to spin down the HDDs
(obviously doesn't apply to the SSD). The monitor also powers down but
the CPU and rest of the computer is full on, so it is immediately
available for whenever I choose to use it.

Users just don't understand about surge current on start or thermal wear
from heating and cooling repeatedly. For example, ever hear someone
recommend to reseat the cables, memory, or some other component? They
only "walk out" of their connections due to thermal expansion and
contraction.
  #8  
Old August 9th 18, 08:10 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 71
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

On 8/8/2018 10:54 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
mike wrote:

How's the reliability [of SSDs]? I'm still reading that they fail
catastrophically without warning.


Most have an estimated lifespan of 10 years, maybe more. For some
users, that's a lot longer then they plan on ever owning a particular
computer. When I build mine, I plan on a 6-year lifespan. My last
build was from a salvaged PC built in 2009 but I replaced a lot of
components (to repair the PC and to upgrade it) back in 2013. So it's
getting close to my 6-year expected lifespan; however, I'm disappointed
with the lack of progress in CPU, the Spectre problems, and will wait
another couple years before planning a new build. I added the SSD in
2016, so I should have several more years left before it gots kaboom.

Electronics seem to fail quick (in a month) or at about their pregnancy
period (9 months). Then they typically last until one month after the
warranty expires or, if you're lucky, until the device's MTBF. That
applies to HDDs or SSDs.

Yes, they do fail catastrophically. They suffer oxide stress at their
junctions during writes. All SSDs have a rated maximum number of writes
(but getting that info from the manufacturer is very difficult). I can
buy HDDs and SSDs with 5-year warranties. Don't plan on either of those
lasting much longer than the warranty. Anything longer is gravy.

They use wear leveling to increase their lifespan. They have to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_leveling

To compensate for when memory blocks go bad (and they will), there are
reserve blocks. Iffy blocks get their data moved (mapped) to a reserve
block and the iffy block gets marked as bad (so it never gets reused)
and any access to it get redirected to the reserve block. As mapping
increases, the drive slows down due to all the redirections. The
reserve space is limited. Once it is all consumed, the SSD drive
catastrophically fails.


That's the part I have issue with.
Just thinking out loud here...I'll not pretend to understand.

Sounds like some arbitrary architectural decision.

What if, when the spare pool ran out of spares, some additional spare blocks
got reassigned from one or more of the partitions.
The master file table got fixed up and the OS was informed
of the change? Maybe it's a drive firmware operation...maybe
it's an OS application/utility.

What is the difference between a reserve block and a regular
unused block? Can't a redirect point anywhere on the drive?

Why should a drive slow down because of redirections?
A pointer is a pointer. Shouldn't matter what the number is.

As you state below, the drive slows down because a densely
packed drive has to do read/modify/write on a whole block just to
save a small amount of data. Writing to a free block is faster.

On the surface, it seems crazy to have the drive just fail catastrophically
when some arbitrary number of reserved sectors gets used up, even
though the drive may have a huge amount of free space available.

When the free drive space on the partition gets low enough, writes
would fail for insufficient space and the OS already knows how to
handle that. The whole system shouldn't crash and
render the drive unreadable for recovery operation.

SSDs will get increasingly slower if the same memory block gets reused.
It must be erased (written) before it can be written with data. To
overcome this speed crippling, TRIM is used to perform optimization in
the background (when the PC is idle). Although the OS usually issues
the TRIM command, most SSDs nowadays have their own firmware do the
garbage collection during idle periods.

An HDD could die tomorrow and the SSD lasts for 10 years. An SSD could
die in the new few minutes while an HDD runs for 20 years. Depends on
how you use it, how it gets abused (by you, by surges, outages, temp
changes, etc), and the quality of the build. Faster with non-moving
parts does not guarantee greater longevity. Having non-moving parts
only imparts some probability of greater longevity; however, SSDs are
self-destructive, so they WILL DIE. Do *not* use SSDs for backups or
long-term archival storage unless the device is only used when saving
the data and not used to access it (except for restoration).

HDDs will fail, too. However, often they indicate pending problems via
S.M.A.R.T. data although that is not a guarantee. A drive whose SMART
says it is healthy could suddenly die, or get so flaky that they become
unreliable. One of the SMART attributes is a pending reallocation
count. HDDs also have reserve space to which bad sectors get remapped.
When a sector is flagged, the pending count goes up. When it eventually
gets remapped, the count goes down. The count should be zero. If the
count is not zero and doesn't eventually decrement to zero (i.e., the
flagged sector is not getting remapped) then the reserve space has been
consumed. The drive does not stopped functioning. There is no
catastrophic failure due to lack of reserve space. The pending count
keeps going up and the sectors become unreliable that cannot get
remapped. There are tools to watch the pending count (SMART monitors)
to warn you when this is starting, so you get time to recover or backup
as much as possible. When the SSD catastrophically fails, you'll have
to rely on your last backup whenever that was (and why backups should be
scheduled because humans make unreliable schedulers).

A lot of folks think that no moving parts mandates the SSDs will last
longer than HDDs. Wrong. An SSD that experiences lots of writes will
die sooner which could be much shorter than for an HDD with its moving
parts. HDDs will experience gyroscopic effects, have a maximum G force
they can withstand, and have a smaller operating temperature range.
HDDs are also not sealed, so they are affected by high humidity (water
molecules are smaller than the sinter filter in the body of the HDD).
SSDs can operate in harsher environments. SSDs do wear out.

SSD reliability in the real world: Google's experience
https://www.zdnet.com/article/ssd-re...es-experience/

I picked up a NEW Samsung SSD850 EVO 500GB drive last month at an estate
sale for $10. Not had the motivation to put it into anything.
Already forgot that I have it.
I'd still have to run the spinner for bulk storage.

I rarely reboot my system and don't play games.


I leave mine on 24x7 because I use my home PC at varying times: day,
night, early morning, any time. Plus I schedule jobs to run during the
early morn, so the computer must be ready (and putting it into Sleep or
Hibernate will only last about an hour before a scheduled task wakes up
the PC). One of the reasons to use a computer is to have it do the
work. I do have power options configured to spin down the HDDs
(obviously doesn't apply to the SSD). The monitor also powers down but
the CPU and rest of the computer is full on, so it is immediately
available for whenever I choose to use it.


My computer is asleep 80% of the time. Takes an additional few seconds
to wake it. Yes it has thermal cycles. Yes the hard drive spins down a
lot.

Users just don't understand about surge current on start or thermal wear
from heating and cooling repeatedly. For example, ever hear someone
recommend to reseat the cables, memory, or some other component? They
only "walk out" of their connections due to thermal expansion and
contraction.


  #9  
Old August 9th 18, 08:11 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Bill[_38_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

VanguardLH wrote:

Users just don't understand about surge current on start or thermal wear
from heating and cooling repeatedly. For example, ever hear someone
recommend to reseat the cables, memory, or some other component? They
only "walk out" of their connections due to thermal expansion and
contraction.


I understand well enough what you are saying, but do these issues
warrant going looking for trouble that you are not having? If I
hear something (like a rattling cable, recently--I go in the case
and address it). No ones life and safety are dependent on my
machine. I suspect if it did, there would be a corresponding
recommended protocol.
  #10  
Old August 9th 18, 09:45 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,286
Default "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"

Bill wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Users just don't understand about surge current on start or thermal wear
from heating and cooling repeatedly. For example, ever hear someone
recommend to reseat the cables, memory, or some other component? They
only "walk out" of their connections due to thermal expansion and
contraction.


I understand well enough what you are saying, but do these issues
warrant going looking for trouble that you are not having? If I
hear something (like a rattling cable, recently--I go in the case
and address it). No ones life and safety are dependent on my
machine. I suspect if it did, there would be a corresponding
recommended protocol.


Same he I don't use medical-grade computers where cables creeping out
of mobo headers cannot be tolerated.

I use my computer at almost any time of the day, not just after work and
before I go to bed. I might go to bed, think of something, and I'm on
the computer again. I don't sleep longer than 4 hours, so I sleep, get
up, do something on the computer, and go back to sleep. When I'm at
work, I often remote to my home PC. When at home, I often VPN into work
(it's a daily thing at home at crunch time). I have scheduled tasks
running on my computer, so obviously the computer cannot be sleeping
during those tasks. I logged my use of my computer awhile back.
Between me using the computer through the entire day and along with
scheduled tasks, my computer was lucky to see an hour of being idle.

Since I leave my computer running 24x7, I've *never* had the thermal
creeping problem with connectors, memory modules, etc. Same for the
hosts in our Alpha Lab at work where those are always on. I know the
Help Desk folks and they've told me the stories about cables and memory
creeping out of their connectors, plus it's evident when you search
online that it happens.
 




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