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  #1  
Old October 17th 11, 03:09 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?

Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the time
and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK


  #2  
Old October 18th 11, 01:44 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default upgrade?

grylion wrote:
Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the time
and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK


A P5K-E is LGA775. A CPU upgrade would involve more cores or more clock speed.

http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/L...P5K-E&p=1&s=22

Core 2 Duo E8600 (3.33GHz,1333FSB,L2:6MB,65W,rev.E0) ALL 1102
Core 2 Quad Q9650(rev.E0,3.00GHz,1333FSB,L2:12MB) ALL 1102

The E8600 would give you 3.3/2.5 = 1.32x ratio.

The Q9650 would be 3.0/2.5 = 1.20x ratio, but with more cores. Some
games have multiple threads of execution, and the game can use more
of the cores. For example, if you were playing Microsoft Flight Simulator X
(FSX), then you'd want the quad core, as it gets better performance.
But games are usually "lopsided", with the boss thread running a core at
100% and the other cores are less loaded, and in that case, the E8600
extra clock speed would help that particular boss thread. In single threaded
situations, the E8600 is going to feel slightly better than the Q9650.

E8600 $290
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115054

Q9650 $340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115130

Now, for comparison, the latest generation would be this.

i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $315
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115070

It's more powerful than either of those processors, with a price in between.

It's not possible to do "single point" CPU characterisation, but I'll try
anyway. If we use PassMark, these are the results. I expect this puts
weight into multiple threads, so the game must be multi-threaded, for
this to have predictive value. The results would tend to follow clock
rate alone, if the benchmark was single threaded. The 2600K is a different
generation of processor, in a different socket, and IPC is likely higher.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net

Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 9,978 passmarks
Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz 4,625 passmarks
Intel Core2 Duo E8600 @ 3.33GHz 2,653 passmarks

For single threaded, I might try SuperPI 32m - basically a clock rate comparison.
The newer generation 2600K seems to be better at this. I selected "32m" or
32 million digits, as it has a data footprint of something like 256MB and
doesn't fit into an L2 or L3 internal cache. That ensures the results aren't
tainted by cache or the lack thereof. Also note that, the results on this
web site, are all over the map, and I hardly trust them. I see too much
unit to unit variation, when I've looked into details, to really trust them.
The spreads are too big. So this is only "roughly illustrative".

2600K 9min 55sec Core i7 2600K at 3328MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2211..._55 sec_516ms

Q9650 15min 6sec Core 2 Q9650 (3Ghz) at 2940MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2102...min_6sec_141ms

E8600 13min 7sec Core 2 E8600 (3.33Ghz) at 3420MHz
(Detailed submission page - erased. Ask me why I hate hwbot!)

Now, seeing as I threw in a motherboard change, with the 2600K,
then I suppose it would only be fair to throw AMD into the mix.
Maybe I can find an AMD processor faster than your Pentium,
the price would be a bit different (cheaper) than the Intel
stuff I put in the charts above. But then, there'd be so many
more variables, it would take the rest of the day to reach
any conclusions.

I've had a similar problem here, with this "upgrade thing" on the
Core2 generation. For a significant improvement, you have to spend
so much more cash, it's almost worthwhile to jump to the next
generation. Maybe a lower end, cheaper Sandy Bridge, would be
your "sweet spot".

Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $220
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115072

Example of a cheap motherboard for the 2500K. The $220 processor plus $105
motherboard, equals the pricing of the Q9650 and keeping your current motherboard.
I only picked this motherboard, to get a price - it might not be the
"best one".

ASRock Z68 PRO3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 $105
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157251

To replace the 2x1GB of DDR2 RAM you've got, 2x1GB of DDR3 costs from
$20 to $30 or so. What you'd be checking for here, is a product where
the customer reviews don't report a lot of "dead on arrival" sticks.
This one is CAS8, while the "regular" ones are CAS9 (really, no difference at all).
So just pick a $20 set, where the customer reviews don't report dead ones.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231205

So maybe $345 or so total, to change generations, go LGA1155 and 2500K.

*******

Games need a video card. I recommend combing through the benchmark charts,
to find something with good price/performance. If you own specific games,
finding which brand of video card they might like, might also give you
more value from your purchase. (The 3870 is near the bottom of this
chart - some of the other charts in this series may be of more value to
you. I'm not even sure what the metric is here. And that's a problem
with the Tomshardware charts, is getting even a whiff of details about
their testing. If this chart was "Price/Performance", we'd have a better
idea. Maybe this is some kind of average frame rate ?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...ndex,2674.html

The 3870 doesn't do too bad on this one. Frame rate 30.1 FPS. For $200
you get 83.60 FPS. The benchmark may have been done with a high end CPU,
to guarantee the video cards form the comparison. So we could pretend
3x improvement for $200, for GPU-limited games. If we take clock rates
on the CPU, take 13/10 for the generation switch, times 3.3/2.5 for
the clock rates, a 2500K for $345 gives at least (minimum) 1.7x, and
more if the game has good multi-threading and makes good usage of the
quad cores.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...amer,2671.html

I'd get better value from an AMD build, but then the CPU couldn't match
the 2500K.

The tradeoff here, is the "dribbling upgrade" problem. If you go too
cheap, you end up not much better off than you were before. The LGA775
processors were expensive enough, that once you buy one, it probably
isn't worthwhile upgrading. The price curve was steep enough in the
first place, to "push you down the curve". The same thing happened
to me, when I was pricing out LGA775, and I ended up in much the same
mess (no quad for me).

Before buying the $200 video card, you'll want to check out the
power supply requirements. Post back your proposed purchase plan,
a list of what the new hardware config is, the make and model number
of the power supply, for some comments. There's no point doing that
yet, until you decide what your next step is.

Maybe you can shave $100 off the thing, going AMD, and it would still
be good enough. But I'm probably not even near the price range you
had in mind.

Have fun,
Paul
  #3  
Old October 19th 11, 12:59 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?

On 18/10/2011 01:44, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:
Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the
time and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK


A P5K-E is LGA775. A CPU upgrade would involve more cores or more clock
speed.

http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/L...P5K-E&p=1&s=22

Core 2 Duo E8600 (3.33GHz,1333FSB,L2:6MB,65W,rev.E0) ALL 1102
Core 2 Quad Q9650(rev.E0,3.00GHz,1333FSB,L2:12MB) ALL 1102

The E8600 would give you 3.3/2.5 = 1.32x ratio.

The Q9650 would be 3.0/2.5 = 1.20x ratio, but with more cores. Some
games have multiple threads of execution, and the game can use more
of the cores. For example, if you were playing Microsoft Flight Simulator X
(FSX), then you'd want the quad core, as it gets better performance.
But games are usually "lopsided", with the boss thread running a core at
100% and the other cores are less loaded, and in that case, the E8600
extra clock speed would help that particular boss thread. In single
threaded
situations, the E8600 is going to feel slightly better than the Q9650.

E8600 $290
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115054

Q9650 $340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115130

Now, for comparison, the latest generation would be this.

i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $315
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115070

It's more powerful than either of those processors, with a price in
between.

It's not possible to do "single point" CPU characterisation, but I'll try
anyway. If we use PassMark, these are the results. I expect this puts
weight into multiple threads, so the game must be multi-threaded, for
this to have predictive value. The results would tend to follow clock
rate alone, if the benchmark was single threaded. The 2600K is a different
generation of processor, in a different socket, and IPC is likely higher.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net

Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 9,978 passmarks
Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz 4,625 passmarks
Intel Core2 Duo E8600 @ 3.33GHz 2,653 passmarks

For single threaded, I might try SuperPI 32m - basically a clock rate
comparison.
The newer generation 2600K seems to be better at this. I selected "32m" or
32 million digits, as it has a data footprint of something like 256MB and
doesn't fit into an L2 or L3 internal cache. That ensures the results
aren't
tainted by cache or the lack thereof. Also note that, the results on this
web site, are all over the map, and I hardly trust them. I see too much
unit to unit variation, when I've looked into details, to really trust
them.
The spreads are too big. So this is only "roughly illustrative".

2600K 9min 55sec Core i7 2600K at 3328MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2211..._55 sec_516ms


Q9650 15min 6sec Core 2 Q9650 (3Ghz) at 2940MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2102...min_6sec_141ms


E8600 13min 7sec Core 2 E8600 (3.33Ghz) at 3420MHz
(Detailed submission page - erased. Ask me why I hate hwbot!)

Now, seeing as I threw in a motherboard change, with the 2600K,
then I suppose it would only be fair to throw AMD into the mix.
Maybe I can find an AMD processor faster than your Pentium,
the price would be a bit different (cheaper) than the Intel
stuff I put in the charts above. But then, there'd be so many
more variables, it would take the rest of the day to reach
any conclusions.

I've had a similar problem here, with this "upgrade thing" on the
Core2 generation. For a significant improvement, you have to spend
so much more cash, it's almost worthwhile to jump to the next
generation. Maybe a lower end, cheaper Sandy Bridge, would be
your "sweet spot".

Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) 95W
Quad-Core $220
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115072

Example of a cheap motherboard for the 2500K. The $220 processor plus $105
motherboard, equals the pricing of the Q9650 and keeping your current
motherboard.
I only picked this motherboard, to get a price - it might not be the
"best one".

ASRock Z68 PRO3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 $105
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157251

To replace the 2x1GB of DDR2 RAM you've got, 2x1GB of DDR3 costs from
$20 to $30 or so. What you'd be checking for here, is a product where
the customer reviews don't report a lot of "dead on arrival" sticks.
This one is CAS8, while the "regular" ones are CAS9 (really, no
difference at all).
So just pick a $20 set, where the customer reviews don't report dead ones.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231205

So maybe $345 or so total, to change generations, go LGA1155 and 2500K.

*******

Games need a video card. I recommend combing through the benchmark charts,
to find something with good price/performance. If you own specific games,
finding which brand of video card they might like, might also give you
more value from your purchase. (The 3870 is near the bottom of this
chart - some of the other charts in this series may be of more value to
you. I'm not even sure what the metric is here. And that's a problem
with the Tomshardware charts, is getting even a whiff of details about
their testing. If this chart was "Price/Performance", we'd have a better
idea. Maybe this is some kind of average frame rate ?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...ndex,2674.html


The 3870 doesn't do too bad on this one. Frame rate 30.1 FPS. For $200
you get 83.60 FPS. The benchmark may have been done with a high end CPU,
to guarantee the video cards form the comparison. So we could pretend
3x improvement for $200, for GPU-limited games. If we take clock rates
on the CPU, take 13/10 for the generation switch, times 3.3/2.5 for
the clock rates, a 2500K for $345 gives at least (minimum) 1.7x, and
more if the game has good multi-threading and makes good usage of the
quad cores.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...amer,2671.html


I'd get better value from an AMD build, but then the CPU couldn't match
the 2500K.

The tradeoff here, is the "dribbling upgrade" problem. If you go too
cheap, you end up not much better off than you were before. The LGA775
processors were expensive enough, that once you buy one, it probably
isn't worthwhile upgrading. The price curve was steep enough in the
first place, to "push you down the curve". The same thing happened
to me, when I was pricing out LGA775, and I ended up in much the same
mess (no quad for me).

Before buying the $200 video card, you'll want to check out the
power supply requirements. Post back your proposed purchase plan,
a list of what the new hardware config is, the make and model number
of the power supply, for some comments. There's no point doing that
yet, until you decide what your next step is.

Maybe you can shave $100 off the thing, going AMD, and it would still
be good enough. But I'm probably not even near the price range you
had in mind.

Have fun,
Paul



Hi Paul,
Thanks for the info.
It sounds as if you know your stuff, extremely helpful.
The dribbling upgrade is the problem.
Thats a lot of considering for me to do.
I found the parts for the original build (Oct 2008) in my e-mails.
I hope they are readable.


Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
Motherboard 1 £104.99
Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1 £59.99
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
Retail 1 £49.99
Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
(PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
(WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
(BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS) 1
£23.99
Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM 1 £14.99

I also have two e-sata cases connected to the system.
I keep two backups of films,home movies,photos and all the rest of the
things that would make you scream if you lost them.

Cheers Peter
  #4  
Old October 19th 11, 03:01 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default upgrade?

grylion wrote:
On 18/10/2011 01:44, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:
Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an
opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the
time and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK


A P5K-E is LGA775. A CPU upgrade would involve more cores or more clock
speed.

http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/L...P5K-E&p=1&s=22


Core 2 Duo E8600 (3.33GHz,1333FSB,L2:6MB,65W,rev.E0) ALL 1102
Core 2 Quad Q9650(rev.E0,3.00GHz,1333FSB,L2:12MB) ALL 1102

The E8600 would give you 3.3/2.5 = 1.32x ratio.

The Q9650 would be 3.0/2.5 = 1.20x ratio, but with more cores. Some
games have multiple threads of execution, and the game can use more
of the cores. For example, if you were playing Microsoft Flight
Simulator X
(FSX), then you'd want the quad core, as it gets better performance.
But games are usually "lopsided", with the boss thread running a core at
100% and the other cores are less loaded, and in that case, the E8600
extra clock speed would help that particular boss thread. In single
threaded
situations, the E8600 is going to feel slightly better than the Q9650.

E8600 $290
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115054

Q9650 $340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115130

Now, for comparison, the latest generation would be this.

i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $315
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115070

It's more powerful than either of those processors, with a price in
between.

It's not possible to do "single point" CPU characterisation, but I'll try
anyway. If we use PassMark, these are the results. I expect this puts
weight into multiple threads, so the game must be multi-threaded, for
this to have predictive value. The results would tend to follow clock
rate alone, if the benchmark was single threaded. The 2600K is a
different
generation of processor, in a different socket, and IPC is likely higher.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net

Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 9,978 passmarks
Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz 4,625 passmarks
Intel Core2 Duo E8600 @ 3.33GHz 2,653 passmarks

For single threaded, I might try SuperPI 32m - basically a clock rate
comparison.
The newer generation 2600K seems to be better at this. I selected
"32m" or
32 million digits, as it has a data footprint of something like 256MB and
doesn't fit into an L2 or L3 internal cache. That ensures the results
aren't
tainted by cache or the lack thereof. Also note that, the results on this
web site, are all over the map, and I hardly trust them. I see too much
unit to unit variation, when I've looked into details, to really trust
them.
The spreads are too big. So this is only "roughly illustrative".

2600K 9min 55sec Core i7 2600K at 3328MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2211..._55 sec_516ms



Q9650 15min 6sec Core 2 Q9650 (3Ghz) at 2940MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2102...min_6sec_141ms



E8600 13min 7sec Core 2 E8600 (3.33Ghz) at 3420MHz
(Detailed submission page - erased. Ask me why I hate hwbot!)

Now, seeing as I threw in a motherboard change, with the 2600K,
then I suppose it would only be fair to throw AMD into the mix.
Maybe I can find an AMD processor faster than your Pentium,
the price would be a bit different (cheaper) than the Intel
stuff I put in the charts above. But then, there'd be so many
more variables, it would take the rest of the day to reach
any conclusions.

I've had a similar problem here, with this "upgrade thing" on the
Core2 generation. For a significant improvement, you have to spend
so much more cash, it's almost worthwhile to jump to the next
generation. Maybe a lower end, cheaper Sandy Bridge, would be
your "sweet spot".

Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) 95W
Quad-Core $220
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115072

Example of a cheap motherboard for the 2500K. The $220 processor plus
$105
motherboard, equals the pricing of the Q9650 and keeping your current
motherboard.
I only picked this motherboard, to get a price - it might not be the
"best one".

ASRock Z68 PRO3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 $105
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157251

To replace the 2x1GB of DDR2 RAM you've got, 2x1GB of DDR3 costs from
$20 to $30 or so. What you'd be checking for here, is a product where
the customer reviews don't report a lot of "dead on arrival" sticks.
This one is CAS8, while the "regular" ones are CAS9 (really, no
difference at all).
So just pick a $20 set, where the customer reviews don't report dead
ones.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231205

So maybe $345 or so total, to change generations, go LGA1155 and 2500K.

*******

Games need a video card. I recommend combing through the benchmark
charts,
to find something with good price/performance. If you own specific games,
finding which brand of video card they might like, might also give you
more value from your purchase. (The 3870 is near the bottom of this
chart - some of the other charts in this series may be of more value to
you. I'm not even sure what the metric is here. And that's a problem
with the Tomshardware charts, is getting even a whiff of details about
their testing. If this chart was "Price/Performance", we'd have a better
idea. Maybe this is some kind of average frame rate ?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...ndex,2674.html



The 3870 doesn't do too bad on this one. Frame rate 30.1 FPS. For $200
you get 83.60 FPS. The benchmark may have been done with a high end CPU,
to guarantee the video cards form the comparison. So we could pretend
3x improvement for $200, for GPU-limited games. If we take clock rates
on the CPU, take 13/10 for the generation switch, times 3.3/2.5 for
the clock rates, a 2500K for $345 gives at least (minimum) 1.7x, and
more if the game has good multi-threading and makes good usage of the
quad cores.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...amer,2671.html



I'd get better value from an AMD build, but then the CPU couldn't match
the 2500K.

The tradeoff here, is the "dribbling upgrade" problem. If you go too
cheap, you end up not much better off than you were before. The LGA775
processors were expensive enough, that once you buy one, it probably
isn't worthwhile upgrading. The price curve was steep enough in the
first place, to "push you down the curve". The same thing happened
to me, when I was pricing out LGA775, and I ended up in much the same
mess (no quad for me).

Before buying the $200 video card, you'll want to check out the
power supply requirements. Post back your proposed purchase plan,
a list of what the new hardware config is, the make and model number
of the power supply, for some comments. There's no point doing that
yet, until you decide what your next step is.

Maybe you can shave $100 off the thing, going AMD, and it would still
be good enough. But I'm probably not even near the price range you
had in mind.

Have fun,
Paul



Hi Paul,
Thanks for the info.
It sounds as if you know your stuff, extremely helpful.
The dribbling upgrade is the problem.
Thats a lot of considering for me to do.
I found the parts for the original build (Oct 2008) in my e-mails.
I hope they are readable.


Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
Motherboard 1 £104.99
Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1
£59.99
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
Retail 1 £49.99
Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
(PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
(WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
(BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS)
1 £23.99
Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM
1 £14.99

I also have two e-sata cases connected to the system.
I keep two backups of films,home movies,photos and all the rest of the
things that would make you scream if you lost them.

Cheers Peter


You have the UK version of power supply, in which the difference, might
be that it runs from 220V. This is the quickest reference I could find.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139001

If you look at the picture of the label, it has three 12V rails,
and a combined rating of 12V @ 40A total. You'd really want
a detailed rail split, to understand if the splitting it into
three 18 amp groups, causes any problems. (It could be 18A for
CPU, 18A for motherboard/hard drive/fans/CDROM, and 18A for PCI Express video.)

Without doing more research, I could *assume* one 18A output
drives the two 2x3 PCI Express video card connectors.

So say I was pretending to buy a $200 GTX 560. First, I'd check
what connectors it needed. In the upper right of this photo,
there are two 2x3 connectors.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-130-661-Z04?$S640W$

Now, to complicate matters, there are two versions of card.
GTX 560 and GTX 560 TI. The latter one, doesn't have a portion
of the GPU turned off (for yield issues). That's why you see some
cards listed as "336" and some as "384". That means for
power estimation purposes, I should try and find a 560 TI and
see what the power is like on that.

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards....=657&card2=641

Here is a page with some power numbers.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/gra...i_4.html#sect0

We can use the table here. 5.5A on one 2x3 and 5.7A on the second 2x3,
for a total of 11.2A. And that is coming from the third 18A output.
The 2.1A "slot" loading, comes from the "motherboard" 12V output.
We have a total of 40A to work with, and 40-11.2-2.1 = 26.7 remaining
for a CPU, hard drives, fans etc. Even if you bought a 130W
processor, that would be 130W/0.9 * (1/12V) = 12A for the processor
(the 0.9 being 90% Vcore conversion efficiency estimated).
So the 26.7A minus 12A, still leaves some margin. A couple hard
drives won't use up all of the remainder.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/video...560_plines.png

So it looks like a $200 video card won't need a supply upgrade. At
least, you have the modular cables for it (a couple 2x3's). A cabling
mismatch, is a "lead indicator" you've got the wrong supply. You still
need to do a little arithmetic though, to see what kind of margin
is available.

CPU 12V output 12A (if you had a 130W processor, less if it's a 95W one)
Motherboard 2.1 + 1.0 + 1.5 + 0.5 = video_slot + HDD + CDROM + fans = 5.1A
PCIE 2x3's 11.2A
Total 28.3A (of 40A available)

That's 340W from the 12V loading, throw in another 60W for other rails,
and you're looking at 400W or so worst case. A real system will be using
less than that (some processors come in significantly below
their TDP rating). To give an example, I have a 65W processor here
that draws 36W flat out (100% CPU). These estimates can be a
little pessimistic, and real numbers will be lower. The pessimistic
estimates, are to make sure the power supply is big enough.

HTH,
Paul
  #5  
Old October 19th 11, 10:47 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?

On 19/10/2011 03:01, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:
On 18/10/2011 01:44, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:
Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an
opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the
time and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK

A P5K-E is LGA775. A CPU upgrade would involve more cores or more clock
speed.

http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/L...P5K-E&p=1&s=22


Core 2 Duo E8600 (3.33GHz,1333FSB,L2:6MB,65W,rev.E0) ALL 1102
Core 2 Quad Q9650(rev.E0,3.00GHz,1333FSB,L2:12MB) ALL 1102

The E8600 would give you 3.3/2.5 = 1.32x ratio.

The Q9650 would be 3.0/2.5 = 1.20x ratio, but with more cores. Some
games have multiple threads of execution, and the game can use more
of the cores. For example, if you were playing Microsoft Flight
Simulator X
(FSX), then you'd want the quad core, as it gets better performance.
But games are usually "lopsided", with the boss thread running a core at
100% and the other cores are less loaded, and in that case, the E8600
extra clock speed would help that particular boss thread. In single
threaded
situations, the E8600 is going to feel slightly better than the Q9650.

E8600 $290
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115054

Q9650 $340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115130

Now, for comparison, the latest generation would be this.

i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $315
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115070

It's more powerful than either of those processors, with a price in
between.

It's not possible to do "single point" CPU characterisation, but I'll
try
anyway. If we use PassMark, these are the results. I expect this puts
weight into multiple threads, so the game must be multi-threaded, for
this to have predictive value. The results would tend to follow clock
rate alone, if the benchmark was single threaded. The 2600K is a
different
generation of processor, in a different socket, and IPC is likely
higher.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net

Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 9,978 passmarks
Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz 4,625 passmarks
Intel Core2 Duo E8600 @ 3.33GHz 2,653 passmarks

For single threaded, I might try SuperPI 32m - basically a clock rate
comparison.
The newer generation 2600K seems to be better at this. I selected
"32m" or
32 million digits, as it has a data footprint of something like 256MB
and
doesn't fit into an L2 or L3 internal cache. That ensures the results
aren't
tainted by cache or the lack thereof. Also note that, the results on
this
web site, are all over the map, and I hardly trust them. I see too much
unit to unit variation, when I've looked into details, to really trust
them.
The spreads are too big. So this is only "roughly illustrative".

2600K 9min 55sec Core i7 2600K at 3328MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2211..._55 sec_516ms



Q9650 15min 6sec Core 2 Q9650 (3Ghz) at 2940MHz
http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2102...min_6sec_141ms



E8600 13min 7sec Core 2 E8600 (3.33Ghz) at 3420MHz
(Detailed submission page - erased. Ask me why I hate hwbot!)

Now, seeing as I threw in a motherboard change, with the 2600K,
then I suppose it would only be fair to throw AMD into the mix.
Maybe I can find an AMD processor faster than your Pentium,
the price would be a bit different (cheaper) than the Intel
stuff I put in the charts above. But then, there'd be so many
more variables, it would take the rest of the day to reach
any conclusions.

I've had a similar problem here, with this "upgrade thing" on the
Core2 generation. For a significant improvement, you have to spend
so much more cash, it's almost worthwhile to jump to the next
generation. Maybe a lower end, cheaper Sandy Bridge, would be
your "sweet spot".

Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) 95W
Quad-Core $220
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115072

Example of a cheap motherboard for the 2500K. The $220 processor plus
$105
motherboard, equals the pricing of the Q9650 and keeping your current
motherboard.
I only picked this motherboard, to get a price - it might not be the
"best one".

ASRock Z68 PRO3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 $105
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157251

To replace the 2x1GB of DDR2 RAM you've got, 2x1GB of DDR3 costs from
$20 to $30 or so. What you'd be checking for here, is a product where
the customer reviews don't report a lot of "dead on arrival" sticks.
This one is CAS8, while the "regular" ones are CAS9 (really, no
difference at all).
So just pick a $20 set, where the customer reviews don't report dead
ones.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231205

So maybe $345 or so total, to change generations, go LGA1155 and 2500K.

*******

Games need a video card. I recommend combing through the benchmark
charts,
to find something with good price/performance. If you own specific
games,
finding which brand of video card they might like, might also give you
more value from your purchase. (The 3870 is near the bottom of this
chart - some of the other charts in this series may be of more value to
you. I'm not even sure what the metric is here. And that's a problem
with the Tomshardware charts, is getting even a whiff of details about
their testing. If this chart was "Price/Performance", we'd have a better
idea. Maybe this is some kind of average frame rate ?)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...ndex,2674.html



The 3870 doesn't do too bad on this one. Frame rate 30.1 FPS. For $200
you get 83.60 FPS. The benchmark may have been done with a high end CPU,
to guarantee the video cards form the comparison. So we could pretend
3x improvement for $200, for GPU-limited games. If we take clock rates
on the CPU, take 13/10 for the generation switch, times 3.3/2.5 for
the clock rates, a 2500K for $345 gives at least (minimum) 1.7x, and
more if the game has good multi-threading and makes good usage of the
quad cores.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2...amer,2671.html



I'd get better value from an AMD build, but then the CPU couldn't match
the 2500K.

The tradeoff here, is the "dribbling upgrade" problem. If you go too
cheap, you end up not much better off than you were before. The LGA775
processors were expensive enough, that once you buy one, it probably
isn't worthwhile upgrading. The price curve was steep enough in the
first place, to "push you down the curve". The same thing happened
to me, when I was pricing out LGA775, and I ended up in much the same
mess (no quad for me).

Before buying the $200 video card, you'll want to check out the
power supply requirements. Post back your proposed purchase plan,
a list of what the new hardware config is, the make and model number
of the power supply, for some comments. There's no point doing that
yet, until you decide what your next step is.

Maybe you can shave $100 off the thing, going AMD, and it would still
be good enough. But I'm probably not even near the price range you
had in mind.

Have fun,
Paul



Hi Paul,
Thanks for the info.
It sounds as if you know your stuff, extremely helpful.
The dribbling upgrade is the problem.
Thats a lot of considering for me to do.
I found the parts for the original build (Oct 2008) in my e-mails.
I hope they are readable.


Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
Motherboard 1 £104.99
Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1 £59.99
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
Retail 1 £49.99
Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
(PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
(WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
(BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS) 1
£23.99
Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM 1
£14.99

I also have two e-sata cases connected to the system.
I keep two backups of films,home movies,photos and all the rest of the
things that would make you scream if you lost them.

Cheers Peter


You have the UK version of power supply, in which the difference, might
be that it runs from 220V. This is the quickest reference I could find.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139001

If you look at the picture of the label, it has three 12V rails,
and a combined rating of 12V @ 40A total. You'd really want
a detailed rail split, to understand if the splitting it into
three 18 amp groups, causes any problems. (It could be 18A for
CPU, 18A for motherboard/hard drive/fans/CDROM, and 18A for PCI Express
video.)

Without doing more research, I could *assume* one 18A output
drives the two 2x3 PCI Express video card connectors.

So say I was pretending to buy a $200 GTX 560. First, I'd check
what connectors it needed. In the upper right of this photo,
there are two 2x3 connectors.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-130-661-Z04?$S640W$

Now, to complicate matters, there are two versions of card.
GTX 560 and GTX 560 TI. The latter one, doesn't have a portion
of the GPU turned off (for yield issues). That's why you see some
cards listed as "336" and some as "384". That means for
power estimation purposes, I should try and find a 560 TI and
see what the power is like on that.

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards....=657&card2=641

Here is a page with some power numbers.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/gra...i_4.html#sect0


We can use the table here. 5.5A on one 2x3 and 5.7A on the second 2x3,
for a total of 11.2A. And that is coming from the third 18A output.
The 2.1A "slot" loading, comes from the "motherboard" 12V output.
We have a total of 40A to work with, and 40-11.2-2.1 = 26.7 remaining
for a CPU, hard drives, fans etc. Even if you bought a 130W
processor, that would be 130W/0.9 * (1/12V) = 12A for the processor
(the 0.9 being 90% Vcore conversion efficiency estimated).
So the 26.7A minus 12A, still leaves some margin. A couple hard
drives won't use up all of the remainder.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/video...560_plines.png

So it looks like a $200 video card won't need a supply upgrade. At
least, you have the modular cables for it (a couple 2x3's). A cabling
mismatch, is a "lead indicator" you've got the wrong supply. You still
need to do a little arithmetic though, to see what kind of margin
is available.

CPU 12V output 12A (if you had a 130W processor, less if it's a 95W one)
Motherboard 2.1 + 1.0 + 1.5 + 0.5 = video_slot + HDD + CDROM + fans = 5.1A
PCIE 2x3's 11.2A
Total 28.3A (of 40A available)

That's 340W from the 12V loading, throw in another 60W for other rails,
and you're looking at 400W or so worst case. A real system will be using
less than that (some processors come in significantly below
their TDP rating). To give an example, I have a 65W processor here
that draws 36W flat out (100% CPU). These estimates can be a
little pessimistic, and real numbers will be lower. The pessimistic
estimates, are to make sure the power supply is big enough.

HTH,
Paul



Thanks again Paul
You have given me plenty to consider.
best wishes
Peter
  #6  
Old October 19th 11, 11:51 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default upgrade?

grylion wrote:



Thanks again Paul
You have given me plenty to consider.
best wishes
Peter


You can do this incrementally.

Buy the $200 video card first, and try it out. If the
games are "GPU limited", that will fix it. The "oomph"
will be the new GPU.

If the games are CPU limited (like a game of chess would be),
then a better CPU would help. The pentium dual core 2.5GHz is
already relatively powerful, so to make a worthwhile upgrade,
you're going to have to spend a bit of money. The Q9650 is
nice, but expensive. And the E8600 isn't that much of an
improvement. Going with another motherboard and cheap RAM,
opens more possibilities. Use the cpubenchmark page and
the "price/performance" button, to review processors which
are considered especially good at price performance.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#cpuvalue

Any more questions, post back.

Paul
  #7  
Old November 21st 11, 09:38 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?

Hi all,
I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
2 g ram
window xp
Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the time
and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
Cheers Peter UK
Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
Motherboard 1 £104.99
Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1 £59.99
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
Retail 1 £49.99
Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
(PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
(WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
(BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS) 1
£23.99
Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM 1
£14.99

On 19/10/2011 23:51, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:



Thanks again Paul
You have given me plenty to consider.
best wishes
Peter


You can do this incrementally.

Buy the $200 video card first, and try it out. If the
games are "GPU limited", that will fix it. The "oomph"
will be the new GPU.

If the games are CPU limited (like a game of chess would be),
then a better CPU would help. The pentium dual core 2.5GHz is
already relatively powerful, so to make a worthwhile upgrade,
you're going to have to spend a bit of money. The Q9650 is
nice, but expensive. And the E8600 isn't that much of an
improvement. Going with another motherboard and cheap RAM,
opens more possibilities. Use the cpubenchmark page and
the "price/performance" button, to review processors which
are considered especially good at price performance.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#cpuvalue

Any more questions, post back.

Paul


Hi there all,
I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
Cheers Peter
  #8  
Old November 22nd 11, 12:18 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?



On 19/10/2011 23:51, Paul wrote:
grylion wrote:



Thanks again Paul
You have given me plenty to consider.
best wishes
Peter


You can do this incrementally.

Buy the $200 video card first, and try it out. If the
games are "GPU limited", that will fix it. The "oomph"
will be the new GPU.

If the games are CPU limited (like a game of chess would be),
then a better CPU would help. The pentium dual core 2.5GHz is
already relatively powerful, so to make a worthwhile upgrade,
you're going to have to spend a bit of money. The Q9650 is
nice, but expensive. And the E8600 isn't that much of an
improvement. Going with another motherboard and cheap RAM,
opens more possibilities. Use the cpubenchmark page and
the "price/performance" button, to review processors which
are considered especially good at price performance.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#cpuvalue

Any more questions, post back.

Paul


Hi there all,
I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
Cheers Peter
  #9  
Old November 22nd 11, 12:18 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?


grylion wrote:



Thanks again Paul
You have given me plenty to consider.
best wishes
Peter


You can do this incrementally.

Buy the $200 video card first, and try it out. If the
games are "GPU limited", that will fix it. The "oomph"
will be the new GPU.

If the games are CPU limited (like a game of chess would be),
then a better CPU would help. The pentium dual core 2.5GHz is
already relatively powerful, so to make a worthwhile upgrade,
you're going to have to spend a bit of money. The Q9650 is
nice, but expensive. And the E8600 isn't that much of an
improvement. Going with another motherboard and cheap RAM,
opens more possibilities. Use the cpubenchmark page and
the "price/performance" button, to review processors which
are considered especially good at price performance.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#cpuvalue

Any more questions, post back.

Paul


Hi there all,
I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
Cheers Peter
  #10  
Old November 22nd 11, 12:24 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
grylion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default upgrade?



Hi there all,
I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
Cheers Peter


Sorry I seem to have made a mess of my previous post.
I do not use these groups much and do not know how to edit the post.
peter
 




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