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Tired of hot processor on P9X79



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 29th 16, 05:14 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Bill Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 243
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I
acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components
never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus
P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've
added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal
card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all
this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79
could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II
and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started
getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my
screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something,
sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy

https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
  #12  
Old March 29th 16, 10:49 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I
acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components
never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus
P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've
added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal
card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all
this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79
could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II
and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started
getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my
screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something,
sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy


https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?


It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product,
yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it.

80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg

Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main
supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board.
And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined
rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two
rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined).

The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate
makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for
safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the
12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever
it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate
limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max
current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire.

From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being
a lightweight.

*******

There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe.

But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some
point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was
put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors
when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor.

You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages
and see how much they're in error.

The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's
if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop
into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of
some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being
careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm.
I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness
and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters,
one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not
on the Molex).

Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if
Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't
at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination.

In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type),
I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the
Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month).
The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long
as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check
current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into
the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the
magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps
for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex
cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec
rating of the supply.

I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the
VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the
ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting
the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete
characterization.

Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests
a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails.
Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one
large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are
kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If
anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain,
the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would
rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while
the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side.
This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within
the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the
main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are
used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load
is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is
no cross loading to speak of.

And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a
classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V
could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and
3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift
direction".

*******

Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-)

I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if
it's something easy to fix.

*******

It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61.
I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find
what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at
least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is
12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going
to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole
kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea
sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about
motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which
might be a problem if the supply was really lightly
loaded.

http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG

I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for
this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior.

Paul


  #13  
Old March 30th 16, 03:21 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Bill Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 243
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007,
I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer
components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system
around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my
needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a
Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But
then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was
time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I
installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it
best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings
in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings --
sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy


https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?


It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product,
yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it.

80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg

Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main
supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board.
And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined
rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two
rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined).

The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate
makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for
safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the
12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever
it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate
limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max
current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire.

From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being
a lightweight.

*******

There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe.

But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some
point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was
put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors
when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor.

You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages
and see how much they're in error.

The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's
if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop
into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of
some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being
careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm.
I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness
and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters,
one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not
on the Molex).

Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if
Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't
at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination.

In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type),
I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the
Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month).
The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long
as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check
current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into
the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the
magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps
for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex
cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec
rating of the supply.

I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the
VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the
ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting
the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete
characterization.

Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests
a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails.
Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one
large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are
kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If
anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain,
the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would
rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while
the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side.
This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within
the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the
main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are
used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load
is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is
no cross loading to speak of.

And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a
classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V
could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and
3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift
direction".

*******

Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-)

I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if
it's something easy to fix.

*******

It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61.
I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find
what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at
least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is
12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going
to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole
kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea
sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about
motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which
might be a problem if the supply was really lightly
loaded.

http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG

I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for
this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior.


Thanks, Paul. With your comments in mind I began to wonder if the
problem wasn't the old PS after all. So this morning after reading your
post I dug into BIOS again (BIOS v. 4608 x64, 12/24/2013) and did find
one setting (CPU VCCSA Voltage) that seemed "off," so I adjusted it to a
level that didn't have its reading displayed in hot pink. (Changed it
from 1.300 to 1.295, and the display's color turned to normal yellow.) I
also tried to reset the AI Overclock Timer from Manual back to Auto,
which I am certain was where I found it yesterday when I began thinking
about overclocking. I actually changed it myself from Auto to Manual
just to look at options. But now, if I set it to Auto, the system won't
boot; just throws me into BIOS again and again until I set it back to
Manual. Weird. Except for reducing the CPU VCCSA Voltage by one step,
I've made no manual changes to BIOS settings.

So ... as I was starting to say ... this morning I got into BIOS and
tried to make everything as standard as possible -- no changes except
for that AI Overclocking Tuner which now must be Manual -- rebooted, and
once again ran the Asus AI Suite II auto-overclock routine, which has
enthusiastically informed I now should see a 30% improvement in
performance, or something. (Whatever it is, I'm sure it's now 30%
better.) And this time around I'm seeing no problems with voltage
notifications. Well, I haven't seen one all of today, anyway, as my
system has remained stable.

So thanks for the reassurance. I think. We shall see....

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
  #14  
Old March 31st 16, 09:08 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Bill Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 243
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007,
I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer
components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system
around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my
needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a
Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But
then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was
time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I
installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it
best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings
in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings --
sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy


https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?


It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product,
yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it.

80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg

Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main
supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board.
And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined
rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two
rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined).

The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate
makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for
safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the
12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever
it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate
limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max
current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire.

From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being
a lightweight.

*******

There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe.

But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some
point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was
put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors
when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor.

You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages
and see how much they're in error.

The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's
if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop
into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of
some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being
careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm.
I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness
and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters,
one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not
on the Molex).

Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if
Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't
at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination.

In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type),
I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the
Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month).
The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long
as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check
current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into
the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the
magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps
for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex
cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec
rating of the supply.

I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the
VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the
ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting
the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete
characterization.

Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests
a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails.
Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one
large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are
kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If
anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain,
the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would
rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while
the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side.
This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within
the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the
main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are
used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load
is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is
no cross loading to speak of.

And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a
classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V
could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and
3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift
direction".

*******

Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-)

I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if
it's something easy to fix.

*******

It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61.
I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find
what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at
least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is
12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going
to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole
kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea
sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about
motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which
might be a problem if the supply was really lightly
loaded.

http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG

I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for
this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior.

Paul



I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I
think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have
installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a
notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below
zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been seeing
-- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the usual
notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to track
down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the Asus AI
Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with another
monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's what I saw:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy

https://goo.gl/Trrz7x

Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo
plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage.
I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports of
drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to
notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to
be noticing nothing amiss.

I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's
got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding
inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I
notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make sense?

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
  #15  
Old April 1st 16, 07:47 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,411
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

Bill Anderson wrote:
On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007,
I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer
components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system
around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my
needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a
Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But
then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was
time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I
installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it
best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings
in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings --
sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy



https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?


It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product,
yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it.

80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg

Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main
supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board.
And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined
rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two
rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined).

The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate
makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for
safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the
12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever
it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate
limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max
current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire.

From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being
a lightweight.

*******

There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe.

But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some
point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was
put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors
when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor.

You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages
and see how much they're in error.

The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's
if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop
into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of
some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being
careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm.
I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness
and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters,
one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not
on the Molex).

Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if
Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't
at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination.

In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type),
I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the
Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month).
The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long
as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check
current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into
the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the
magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps
for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex
cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec
rating of the supply.

I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the
VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the
ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting
the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete
characterization.

Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests
a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails.
Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one
large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are
kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If
anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain,
the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would
rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while
the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side.
This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within
the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the
main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are
used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load
is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is
no cross loading to speak of.

And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a
classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V
could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and
3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift
direction".

*******

Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-)

I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if
it's something easy to fix.

*******

It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61.
I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find
what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at
least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is
12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going
to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole
kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea
sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about
motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which
might be a problem if the supply was really lightly
loaded.

http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG

I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for
this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior.

Paul



I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I
think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have
installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a
notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below
zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been seeing
-- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the usual
notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to track
down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the Asus AI
Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with another
monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's what I saw:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy


https://goo.gl/Trrz7x

Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo
plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage.
I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports of
drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to
notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to
be noticing nothing amiss.

I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's
got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding
inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I
notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make sense?


There used to be a problem, back in the era
when the Hardware Monitor sat on the SMBUS.
SMBUS did not support atomic transactions.
You could have two hardware monitor programs
running, and one could corrupt a bus cycle
the other one was doing. Leading to "goofy
voltage readings".

But the modern hardware monitor interface
should be connected to LPC bus (nibble wide
databus, 33Mhz clock). The LPC bus is atomic.
Once a transfer starts, it has to finish before
another program can get in there and use it.

I would have to run Speedfan, and look at the
startup log of detected hardware monitors, to
understand if there is an issue there (connected
to wrong bus). Only old hardware should have
a problem like this.

*******

A completely separate issue, is how the OS can
abuse things. On Windows 10, it appears Microsoft
has "taken over" SMART disk status. As my utility
no longer gets sane readings, and the OS appears
to be managing SMART. And I don't think it had
to interfere with things, to do the implementation
either. They should have been able to have two
pieces of software, read out the SMART status
at will, without any issue. The design implied
they may be writing commands to SMART or something.
It's either that, or a security issue. And if it
was a security issue of bus access, my SMART program
should just "bomb" with a bus error or something.
Instead, my SMART program just reads out apparent
garbage. And I don't think this is a BIOS or
hardware issue.

As for temps and voltages, as far as I know,
you can still read those out. If LPC connected,
you should be able to run multiple programs.
Only time they might conflict, is if you changed
the fan divider in mid-flight, and the other
program didn't "do the math" properly to
compensate. But if the two programs aren't
interfering with the configuration, they should
both be able to read out OK.

Paul
  #16  
Old April 2nd 16, 05:27 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Bill Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 243
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

On 4/1/2016 1:47 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues:

When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007,
I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed
would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer
components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system
around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my
needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a
Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But
then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was
time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I
installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it
best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings
in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings --
sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy



https://goo.gl/iGE3IK

Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was
doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me
overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something
without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back
to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one
above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI
II and the Kraken installation.

Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My
wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power
supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a
pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its
match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I
have? You think?


It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product,
yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it.

80 PLUS Certified Active PFC
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg

Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main
supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board.
And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined
rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two
rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined).

The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate
makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for
safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the
12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever
it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate
limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max
current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire.

From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being
a lightweight.

*******

There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe.

But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some
point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was
put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors
when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor.

You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages
and see how much they're in error.

The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's
if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop
into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of
some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being
careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm.
I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness
and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters,
one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not
on the Molex).

Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if
Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't
at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination.

In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type),
I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the
Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month).
The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long
as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check
current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into
the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the
magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps
for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex
cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec
rating of the supply.

I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the
VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the
ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting
the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete
characterization.

Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests
a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails.
Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one
large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are
kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If
anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain,
the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would
rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while
the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side.
This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within
the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the
main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are
used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load
is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is
no cross loading to speak of.

And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a
classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V
could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and
3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift
direction".

*******

Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-)

I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if
it's something easy to fix.

*******

It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61.
I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find
what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at
least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is
12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going
to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole
kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea
sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about
motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which
might be a problem if the supply was really lightly
loaded.

http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG

I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for
this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior.

Paul



I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I
think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have
installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a
notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below
zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been
seeing -- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the
usual notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to
track down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the
Asus AI Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with
another monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's
what I saw:

https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy


https://goo.gl/Trrz7x

Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo
plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage.
I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports
of drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to
notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to
be noticing nothing amiss.

I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's
got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding
inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I
notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make
sense?


There used to be a problem, back in the era
when the Hardware Monitor sat on the SMBUS.
SMBUS did not support atomic transactions.
You could have two hardware monitor programs
running, and one could corrupt a bus cycle
the other one was doing. Leading to "goofy
voltage readings".

But the modern hardware monitor interface
should be connected to LPC bus (nibble wide
databus, 33Mhz clock). The LPC bus is atomic.
Once a transfer starts, it has to finish before
another program can get in there and use it.

I would have to run Speedfan, and look at the
startup log of detected hardware monitors, to
understand if there is an issue there (connected
to wrong bus). Only old hardware should have
a problem like this.

*******

A completely separate issue, is how the OS can
abuse things. On Windows 10, it appears Microsoft
has "taken over" SMART disk status. As my utility
no longer gets sane readings, and the OS appears
to be managing SMART. And I don't think it had
to interfere with things, to do the implementation
either. They should have been able to have two
pieces of software, read out the SMART status
at will, without any issue. The design implied
they may be writing commands to SMART or something.
It's either that, or a security issue. And if it
was a security issue of bus access, my SMART program
should just "bomb" with a bus error or something.
Instead, my SMART program just reads out apparent
garbage. And I don't think this is a BIOS or
hardware issue.

As for temps and voltages, as far as I know,
you can still read those out. If LPC connected,
you should be able to run multiple programs.
Only time they might conflict, is if you changed
the fan divider in mid-flight, and the other
program didn't "do the math" properly to
compensate. But if the two programs aren't
interfering with the configuration, they should
both be able to read out OK.

Paul


I just realized this morning that I have achieved Nirvana. Everything
on my computer -- all applications, Win10, system monitors -- everything
-- is working at this moment just as I want. UserBenchmark.exe declares
that as a desktop my computer has reached 92% of perfection, a "nuclear
submarine" ranking. My temps are under control by the CAM software that
accompanied my Kraken cpu cooler, my cpu is overclocked by 38% in BIOS
using the Asus Suite II, which I've since disabled because it's
otherwise buggy, my four indispensable gadgets are working, the system
blazes through video editing tasks without high temp complaints, and,
and...I just can't think of anything else to improve on perfection.
(OK, UserBenchmark says my video card isn't up to handling the latest 3D
games, but I don't play 3D games, so who cares? And I have it all backed
up!

I've been tinkering with my system for so many days now that I'm not
sure what I'll do with the rest of the morning. I may have to go
outside for a walk in the fresh air. Holy moly.

Thanks, Paul, for your kind and patient assistance as I've worked
through all this. I'll probably be back in a few days after my Asus
P9X79 mbo fries itself from all the overclocking. But until then...success!

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
  #17  
Old April 3rd 16, 04:22 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Bill Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 243
Default Tired of hot processor on P9X79

On 4/2/2016 11:27 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:


Thanks, Paul, for your kind and patient assistance as I've worked
through all this. I'll probably be back in a few days after my Asus
P9X79 mbo fries itself from all the overclocking. But until
then...success!


Actually it was only until 10:00 tonight when my system totally shut
down with no warning and required cycling the PS to get things going
again. No more overclocking to nuclear sub for me. Back to being a
powerful but dependable battleship.

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
 




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